There’s been a lot of talk recently about how much property values have declined in Woodmen Hills…and lots of numbers bandied about.
Bill Chin did the research, and pulled the facts out of MLS records and El Paso County property reports. Here are the documents that identify the trends:
| 2007 Sales Data | 2008 Sales Data | 2009 Sales Data | 07-09 Annual Summary | 07-09 Complete Listings |
Home prices, on average, have fallen 10.85% since 2007, or $26,334.00.
The cause? Ummm….the economy, perhaps?
Broken down by filing (this document), we see that:
- Filing 2 had the greatest decrease 2007-2009, with average sales prices dropping 35.23%, or $71,902.00
- Filing 10 actually increased in average sale price, by 3.67% or $10,258.00
As much of the data that you provide, this data on home sales leaves out a lot of information.
The language of your posting implies that home prices have fallen due to something the district has done. The entire truth would probably be much more revealing.
For example,
1. How many of the homes sold at a loss are the direct actions of the homeowner not keeping their property maintained because of a lack of enforcement of covenants? Or perhaps their home prices decreased based on the condition of the neighbors property or neighborhood area due to lack of covenant enforcement?
2. How many of the homes that sold at a loss are due to the direct actions of the homeowner, being like many greedy Americans, buying much more house than they could ever afford and having the banks foreclose on them?
3. I personally know of one of the homes on your list that sold for $95,000. This data point by itself would drastically change your percentage results, but by not knowing the true story, the information you present to determine your conclusion remains misleading. The house in question had severe mold and water damage and required around $90,000 of repairs to be livable. So, isn’t it better that someone bought the house, repaired it, and brought it up to standards even though the sell price conveniently allows your numbers to work in your favor?
4. The data you submit in its current form is useless. Unless you are willing to go and research the sale of each house, then you do not have any real data to present here and are only subjecting the residence of Woodmen Hills to more doubt and fear about their home prices and condition of their community.
5. The key to maintaining the home prices in Woodmen Hills is simple, residents working together to have and maintain the best community in the area by maintaining the appearance of their homes, complying with covenants, and working together to promote the community.
It is only through these actions that we will encourage builders to build more homes and have more businesses move into the community.
We stand to have one of the best communities in the area, but it is through the actions of possibly ten or less overzealous and ill-informed individuals that continues to several impact the reputation and future growth of this community. They can say all they want, that they are fighting for the common person, that they are fighting for smaller government, that they are fighting for the truth, when in reality they personally hurting this community and will, if they continue, ultimately be the ones that drive the home prices down and lead this community into ruin.
I encourage everyone to get off your butts and find out the truth yourself. Don’t rely on this data or any other data randomly posted to an internet site to skew your thought processed and turn you into a mindless robot.
BE ENVOLVED, BE INFORMED, BE YOUR OWN VOICE, MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR THE BETTER, BE A PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY.
“The language of your posting implies that home prices have fallen due to something the district has done.”
Hmmm…the language of my posting makes no such assumption. In fact, I specifically stated that
My point with this posting? There have been those on one side that say covenant enforcement is killing our home values; there are those on the other side that say it is the infighting; there are others that say it is the cost of water; heck, for all I know there may be others that say it’s because the moon is in the 7th house. (Dave making the Sign of the Horns
)
I made no points, one way or another with this — because I can’t. It is raw data. Infer what you will from it….but there is no empirical data at all that supports or weakens anything this board, or the recall committee, or Ron Pace, or anyone else claims.
Anecdotal, sure…we have lots of that.
dave,
I stand corrected, you are correct, I read into your orignal posting something that was not there.
Thanks for the info, but as you state it is is still just raw data, in fact incorrect raw data becuase one of the homes in filing 3 is listed twice.
I think homeprices still have a way to drop before they go up, there are a lot of homes out there that the banks are holding on to from foreclosures still.
Thanks for the great website by the way.
I think it is some what you both mention, specifically and in order:
1. Econonmy/downswing in home market (however, some rare communities have been immune and have enjoyed continued increases in their home values – according to the Gazette our’s isn’t one of them).
2. Something the district has done / hasn’t done (perceived and real public and private fighting/infighting with the community at large; covenant enforcement issues).
3. Sprawl (because many say growth is the answer to everything – just ask CS city gov’t, El Paso County Commissioners, and in my opinion the metro district).
4. Eastonville Rd (isn’t it a beautiful gateway into our community with all its sidewalks and landscaping).
5. Cost of water – maybe; entire cost of monthly metro fees – more likely (awfully pricey for what residents get).
As a resident of this community this is my list because I live here and sometimes don’t like living here because of these things. What I hope for in the future is a model community where folks desire to live (i.e., “I wish we could live in Woodmen Hills”). However, some of these things will be very difficult without some very different mindsets. Our community could be immune to the whims of the market if it was unique and a community to aspire to (think Broadmoor).
To become a community to aspire to we need to safeguard against the whims of the market by ensuring that we don’t continue to become part of the CS sprawl and ending up as just another indistinguishable neighborhood with big box stores and lots of traffice racing through our neighborhoods. Sprawl is fed by the growth will solve everything mentality. So we need to safeguard against this by having controlled/deliberate growth with a clear endsate in mind. This endsate needs to be informed by the expectation that all growth (good, bad, controlled, un-controlled) comes to an end at some point and at this point a community must learn to thrive through some other means other than growth alone. Here are examples of what deliberate controlled growth could yield on 52 acres or less: http://www.citycenteratoysterpoint.com/ or this in Pasadena: http://www.nextimagephoto.com/id26.html. Look at these and then decide whether you would want something similar or another strip mall/big box center. But I understand, we are at risk to the whims of the county commissioners approving re-zoning and business growth for the tax base because we don’t have our own government per se. Or can the district work with the county commissioners to shape our future? I don’t know.
I do know that they are very busy worrying about the cost of water and water rights, and bonds, and covenant fees, and covenant enforcement to make bondholders happier. The tragedy here is that the developer was allowed to develop 11 filings with 11 different covenant standards – making a community ripe for strife (why can’t I do this in my yard, they can do it in so an so’s yard? Oh, they have different covenants – darn! I should have really understood this before I moved here). The other tragedy is that many future home buyers are aware of the very public spectacle that the covenant issue has spawned – certainly making many of them take pause before moving here. But hey, the county commissioners allowed for the development of a community with many varying and disperate standards….
The many future homebuyers also have to enter the community via Eastonville road – a beautiful ambassador to our community by anyone’s standard – no? Don’t worry – it won’t improve (sidewalks, landscaping) because it is a county road – for which the county has no money to improve it and it’s not a district issue becuase it is a county road – and its not a covenants issue unless some adjacent homeowner doesn’t manage their easement. But don’t worry – since the county commissioners approved a rezoning of the properties adjacent to the intersection of Eastonville and Meridian from residential to commercial – they will eventually improve it to facilitate the increased traffic to the big box shopping center/strip mall that will eventually inhabit it (ahhh, growth).
So here is what I want for Falcon and Woodmen Hills in particular:
-The metro district/board as the defact gov’t in woodmen hills to lobby for the community and against anything that is detrimental to the community (sprawl/bad growth, ugly county roads, etc)
-Get past the fighting and conflict and develop a vision to unify the neighborhoods of Woodmen Hills and project a positive image and place to reside (this goes beyond a pleasant website but must be assumed by the media and realtors operating in the area).
-Local government (be it metro district, commissioners, or whatever may come) that is forward thinking and can think of how to develop a vibrant and sustainable community that is not dependent on future growth alone (all growth ends sooner or later – and then what?).
-Take stock of the metro fees – are they about right for what a resident gets – or are there better places to live for the money (if so there is work to be done here).
Thanks for the forum and therapy.
Excellant post and valid points.
One thing you might research for the site is the cost other communities pay for their ammenities via taxes vs a monthly payment to the district. I think that would be an eye opener for a lot of folks and they would understand that they are getting value for money with their monthly district payment.
I have done this, with Meridian Ranch: See this post.
Excellent posting, you need to click on the link above and review the analysis. If more people took the time to research stuff like this maybe they would settle the F down and act like adults.
To supplement the water rate information, I have posted a chart on Falconlady.com of property taxes for the various communities in our area. Woodmen Hills is second lowest of tax rates in our area.
True….but there’s more to this than meets the eye.
A properly-written mill levy would actually be a benefit to Woodman Hills, and here’s why:
1) By “properly-written”, I mean a levy that is dedicated exclusively to one issue (for example, paying down our bond debt) and has a sunset clause (i.e. “the mill levy will cease to exist when the bonds are paid off”)
2) Homeowners would be able to deduct a portion of the tax assessed against their income tax (in essence, pay less to the US government)
The key, of course, is #1 — I doubt any of the mill levies assessed are properly written. We are still paying the Woodmen Road expansion mill levy…has anyone seen their books?
As things stand now, there is no incentive nor requirement for the district to lower your water/wastewater/parks & rec fees if/when the bonds are paid off. I’d like to think they would…but given the history of the district, I doubt it.
And I say “If” because we keep refinancing (and increasing our debt — this time by around $1,000,000.00) and kicking the “redemption date” down the road.
One of the advantages to this round of re-financing is that repayment is not tied to revenue, from what I understand. That’s one of the reasons that the last set of bonds were so onerous. Our tap fees were down and that was the only income we could use to pay off those bonds.
While a mill levy is tax deductible, you don’t receive the same reduction in taxes that you pay in mill levy. In practical terms, more money comes out of residents’ pockets.
You are probably right in assuming that the bonds may never be paid off. Just like on a home, there is always something to purchase–a repair, an upgrade, an expansion. But, hey, our street lights are on and trash gets picked up at our parks! And our water fees didn’t go up like many of our neighboring water districts.
I missed this part of Lynne’s comment:
What I was speak of is a mill levy in lieu of our mandatory fees. Many people don’t know that the fees we pay to the district (for water, wastewater, parks &rec) are not based on consumption — they are based on the minimum required income to meet the bond payments. Someone once asked why they pay the same for using 1000 gallons of water as someone using 7500 gallons of water–that’s why.
A properly-written mill levy would take the place of our mandatory fees…so your payment would be reduced; and, since you would be able to write off a portion of the payment on your income taxes, LESS money comes out of residents’ pockets.
Again, though…it would have to be very narrowly-written.
I was told on several occasions that the reason we have a minimum 7500 gallon usage rule is because when the district originally applied for water rights for the development they had to give them a usage number for each household and that number was 7500 gallons. I have asked this question several times but the answer always remains complicated and hard to understand. I believe at this point that it is not a number easily changed, but the district could still give a rebate of sorts to encourage households to use less water in our desert environment.
But just like the covenant charges, there are a huge amount of people using a lot more than my average 2000 gallons a month yet paying the same amount for the basic 7500 gallons. So, using the same logic as those folks complaining about paying $2-3 a month being charged to each home to enforce covenants, I WANT THOSe HOMES TO PAY MORE FOR WATER EACH MONTH if they are getting more water than me each month for the same price! Why should I pay for your water?
See how all this works, the homes paying the $2-3 each month for covenant enforcement complain each month yet probably use more water then me, and I also possible pay for their kids to attend school each year when I don’t have kids in school. They don’t have a problem with me spending over $1400 a year in school tax that directly benifits them when I don’t have kids, but they have a HUGE problem paying $2-3 a month per house to ensure our community continues to look nice which benifits me.
Funny how everything works out in the end isn’t it.
The housing values in Woodmen Hills have depreciated due to:
I wish I’d have bought a little north! Real estate agents give buyers the facts. I’ve had my chance to purchase few short sales in the neighborhood. I passed. I still have deep concerns about W. Hills.
The CCR’s should be all rolled back to the basics. On all of WH. We really are close to being built out. El Paso Co. has ordinance that already protect us. We pay ridiculous amounts to Property Management Co. and Lawyers.
The surrounding property will be developed-when the economy takes a good swing. I’m sure the 2nd golf course will be built. Developers will make improvemens to existing property that has been already designated for either residential or commercial. My concern… WATER
The most important item to remember folks is you run out of water. Forget the economy and it’s impact to your property. Doesn’t matter who’s sitting or fighting on any board. Water is the issue.
We need to make sure we elect a Metro Board that will look after our water rights. Water and waste water managment. We need a level headed District Manager and a good water Attorney to advise the Board. I have no problem seeing my money spent for legal fees or employee salaries if they would represent us in what is really important. WATER.
Change is mandatory. How do we get our community to at least become of aware of how important this election is becoming. They don’t know who to turn to for real advice. If we could get the vast majority to understand what really is important, what is truly at stake. Maybe we would have a chance for reform.
So I’ve asked this 2-3 times. Is there an “official” meet the candidates night???????????????
Hi BeachBum –
Please check out Ron Pace’s site savewoodmenhills.com. He has dates and times for the “meet the candidate” nights in April; I (and others) will be participating.
Mmteik – I believe you may be missing one of the main premises for the argument against the way the Covenant Management Board works, and its association with the Metro District Board. It’s not the money each month that is the issue, it’s the way the Board(s) went about ‘enforcing’ their will upon a group of people in a manner the courts have already ruled once as invalid, and I am pretty sure will be upheld in the Appeal process. It is also their (the Board(s)) desire to continue to fund these efforts in direct violation of CRS 32-1-1004(8)(b) which states:
Since the current ruling by the court show they have no right to do Covenant Enforcement Pursuant to CRS 32-1-1001(1)(j)(I), and they themselves voted to stop collecting the Covenant Fee in June (as a direct impact of said ruling) they appear to continue to KNOWINGLY violate a court order and a Colorado Statute.
Personally – and I know I speak for a lot of folks as they have told me in person – I will not abide an entity purporting to represent a ‘form of Government’, albeit a local one, to arbitrarily decide what laws and rules of conduct apply to them.
I am not an attorney, I didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but of the 6 attorneys and multiple lay people who have read the issues – all except the counsel for the Metro District have reached the same conclusion as the courts did the first time.
This Board should be focused (as beachbumsatie said) on securing our financial future. Not spending precious funds in attempts to impose their will upon others when they were told by outside counsel 3 years ago they had no right.
Unfortunately, one MUST stand up for these rights, or risk forever losing them. That is why I and others chose to fight this issue.